These articles while pretending to worry about the future are nothing but an attack on the entire yeshiva world and kollel system. Attacking the concept how baalei Tzedaka and chesed are supporting klal yisrael. From cross currents:
They are worried about the system? But the larger question to me is: while Moshiach is close and may arrive at any moment, can we build a community based on that intuition?Do these writers not believe in Bitachon ? Do they think that Kollel guys are not worried about their children? Do they really believe that only they are smarter in preparing their children for the future?
Has the Orthodox Jewish community ever before been so top heavy, without a plan for sustainability? It a model built on a multitude of people dependent on a few rich benefactors and secular government handouts a responsible communal construct? Is growing a generation of men who study until they can’t, and need to then find a source of income without the self-confidence and skills they could have easily acquired had they taken the yoke of parnassah at a younger age, in the interest of the spiritual commitment of the next generation – and the one after it? Are mega-donations by fabulously wealthy people an economic plan? Why do we avoid a vision that creates and lionizes a strong middle class – honorable, hardworking balabatim who make a living in dignity by employing skills learned in academic environments worthy of the intellectualism with which we pride ourselves? Why instead do we promote the “spiritual selfie” – getting through our generation, without planning for those who come after us?
There is a havtacha of לא ימושו מפיך ומפי זרעך The bloggers come and go but the Torah will forever stand. In the meantime let the nay Sayers do their job of supporting Torah.
You aren't really putting forth anything resembling a counter-argument here. If you don't agree why don't you write a real response instead of just an attack on (other) bloggers?
ReplyDeleteYou don't counter hate with reasoning.
DeleteThe problem is that these guys have a point. There's no shum tzad sofek shebaolam that the lack of genuine income (combined with widespread materialiasm) is causing enormous suffering in charedi circles.
ReplyDeleteJust the other day my wife was at a teacher's gathering and the principal of the school (who is also an all-purpose hocker of sorts) said that 80% of chasunas made in Lakewood involve collecting tzedaka to support them.
People who talk about bitachon in this context are misguided, and for the most part hypocrites. (I don't believe any of these people really have this bitachon in other matters – it’s convenient to adopt a bitachon attitude when it allows you to do something that you want to do.)
[I remember once pointing out to a friend of mine that all these Israelis are coming around and collecting money, and what happened to their bitachon. And he responded "they never had bitachon in Hashem. They had bitachon that if push came to shove they would be able to go to America and collect money". And so it is.]
This is not just about the future. The facts are that right now, today, there is an enormous amount of suffering among the people, over financial matters. The yungerleit (or ex-yungerleit) themselves, their families, and - not the least - the others who are forced to bail them out to some extent. That's now. And for the future, it's only going to get worse. Hachacham einav b'rosho. Or, as the Brisker Rov said "kein naar darf men nisht zein".
And the reliance on rich guys is an issue too. There are two problems here, 1) that it gives rich guys an inordinate influence over frum society, and 2) that it causes rabbonim and RY to overlook the fact that a lot of these rich guys are crooks of all sorts and Ponzi schemers. Which adds to the chillul Hashem when these respectable people and gedolim-hobnobbers are led away by the FBI, but also enables them to rip off more frum people, because who wouldn't trust this great baal tzedaka who is pictured sitting on the dais of important mosdos and shaking hands with roshei yeshiva?
Some of the reasons this situation comes about are a combination of vague bitachon type hashkafos, as in this post, genuine ahavas hatorah, and a widespread reliance on the notion that "I don't know, I'll do what everyone else is doing". If you're in your late teens and early 20s and would want to learn forever if possible and have no idea what you might do if the money for this ran out, but on the other hand everyone else you know is similarly clueless and unconcerned about it, and plus lemaiseh you see all these 40-ish yungerleit walking around and they seem to be alive and well fed so what’s the worst that can happen? OK, so you might have to end up wearing a shmatte hat, not terrible. Only later do a lot of people find out that some of the guys they see are exceptions and a high percentage of the rest are in d’rerd.
Of course, none of the above is intended to suggest that I have a grand scheme which which will solve all the issues. It’s a very complex issue, which involves genuine issues of Torah and prishus from secular society. And in addition, one huge issue overhanging all of this is materialism. If more yeshivaleit would make more money but then just become more materialistic then they’ll still have the same financial pressures but with less ruchniyus to compensate. And you see this with a lot of baaleibatisher and modern people, who have lifestyles that are even more materialistic than contemporary yeshivaleit, and face enormous stresses as a result.
My point with all this is just to note that it’s a legitimate issue and a huge problem and not one to be written off with a few platitudes and attacks on the message-bearers.
These problems are not only in in the yeshiva world. There are plenty of working baalei batim who can not make ends meet. They also rely on daddy. In The secular world today in the US grandparents are now paying college tuition for their grandchildren. Their middle aged father who has a degree apparently cant afford it. The economy is bad now period. to blame the kollel system is just pure sinah.
DeleteSo he economy is bad, might as well not work? That's your argument?!
ReplyDeleteI personally know the author of that article. He is an exceptional person. He has brothers and brothers-in-law who have learned and are for many years and are still learning. He is a tremendous baal middos and harbors zero hate for anyone. Your blog serves an important purpose and it loses credibility when responding like you have. He brings up very valid points which require real responses. You give the impression that there is no valid response.
ReplyDeleteIs there a Gadol that made the same claim as the author?? Did you ever hear a Rosh Yeshiva talk like that? The response is to appreciate the fact that there are youngeleit that are moser nefesh to learn torah lishma. They are a minority. Most people of their age are working today. If someone feels the kollel sytem failed them as the author claimed in a previous article thats no excuse to go and blame the system or blame the gevirim that are supporting torah.
DeleteSecondly many youngeleit go on and continue in klei kodesh for their parnassah. who will be the rebbeim, Dayanim, or those that are holding up the world with their torah learning. How about all the baalei batim that can not make ends meet. why no worry for them too?
We will defend the kavod hatorah of those that are holding up the world. Unfortunately, in blog-sphere the more you question the kollel system the more points you score.
Finally, some substance. A proper question to be dealt with is the following: How well is our chinuch system serving the majority of our boys who will not be learning in kollel long term. I would love to hear the opinion of our (living )gedolim. Are our yeshivos gedolos being mechanech their talmidim what living a life of avodas Hashem means. Or, is life presented as "learning or working"...
DeleteYour question is not sincere its an attack on the system. Sorry the system is great. People that are successful take credit for themselves, those that dont make it will blame the system.
DeleteAn attack on the system?!?! I assume that my ten years in kollel i'm constantly under personal attack from myself. There is a mehalech of living on an island and ignoring world issues, but anyone reading this blog obviously doesn't subscribe to that way of living. The only attack I've seen is against that writer on cross-currents. How about a coherent response?
DeleteIn this article (http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2013/07/10/the-yeshivish-brand/) the author writes about his 10 years in kollel ..
Delete"But the reality is that the student with 10 years of experience in a yeshiva of this form may be weak in time management and organization. I was a diligent yeshiva student and I was very weak in both of those areas."
Thats HIS OWN FAILINGS and weaknesses nothing wrong with the system There many kollel guys that dont have a weakness its a personality issue. To go ahead and blame the system is nothing but spitting at the hand that fed you.
I guess that thi is not a forum for serious discussion. Bearing in mind that the comments section of crss-currents is replete with people who are not properly macshiv kollel and frankly many (if not most) of the posts there are extremely ignorant. However, the above mentioned author is not such a person. Although I personally do not agree with many of his opinions, his questions deserve real introspection. The responses here are sorely lacking. Each response defending the attacks on him further illustrate the lack of serious reading of anything which questions the "system."
ReplyDeleteענה כסיל כאולתו
DeleteYou are trying to turn the discussion into an attack on this "author" and his questions deserve real introspection. Sorry, it does not deserve a response.