The planned trip of Admorim From Eretz Yisrael to participate in a mass protest and Atzeres against Giyus has been cancelled for now. Despite having finalized on a location or the event, other logistical factors have weighed in and it was decided to cancel the Asifa. A mass mega Asifa is in the plans for a later date when the weather will be more cooperative. News reports in Israel, the Netanyahu Govt was pressured from the pending trip and asked askanim to call it off as they did not want bad PR now in the American media.
The Belzer Rebbe has informed the Admorim that he will not be able to travel to the US or personal health reasons. Inclement weather and snow in the forecast next week coupled with expenses and other logistical issues contributed to the decision to call off and postpone the kinus.
There maybe a Protest in Israel next week and in the USA at a later date.
I don't believe the claims about the Netanyahu government asking the askanim to call it off, even if there were such "news reports" (of which I am also skeptical).
ReplyDeleteThat sounds like a trial balloon aimed at some combination of 1) saving face over the collapse of the asifa, 2) taking a bit of the edge off the anti-Israel aspect of the asifa, 3) showing the world how big of a deal the asifa was and would be if it eventually happens, and 4) setting up an eventual claim that "we tried to help the Netanyahu government when they asked us to hold off on the asifa and this is how they repay us?!"
But not to put too much emphasis on it. It could be hjust one asken trying something along these lines, and not a broader strategic move.
Will the Yeshivos always be doomed to dependence on the "kindness'' of the Zionist government ???
ReplyDeletehttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-rgONheJUgTc/UriSlYxwu7I/AAAAAAAAG6A/TyFKrzoOzTg/w426-h3477/owca.gif
I am just glad that cooler heads have prevailed. Israel is facing a very dangerous situation with the super-hostile Obama regime goading the Arabs into attacking Israel in addition to the ongoing Iranian threat and the pending release of Arab terrorists from prison with the accompanying pain of the families that lost loved ones to these monsters, and so we certainly don't need these internal macholokot. It is imperative that everyone keep their eye on the big picture and to avoid these ultimately petty squabbles. We must always remember we are one people (if we forget it, the antisemites will always remind us) and we are all in the same boat together.
ReplyDeleteI don't you can describe the draft as a "petty squabble". Personally I think the draft is an existential threat to frumkeit, but even if you disagree, you certainly should be able to recognize that it has the potential of creating a seismic change in the charedi lifestyle.
DeleteWhether this asifa would accomplish anything positive is another story. But that doesn't mean that the underlying issue is not a very serious one.
We have seen time and again that precisely when the zionim renew their attacks on the Torah they have suddenly had to deal with threats from other sources...
DeleteLets hope they wake up in-time this time.
Fotheringay-
DeleteI view it as a petty squabble because everyone knows that no Haredi is going to be forced to serve in the army. The Defense Minister himself has said so. The real argument is whether those who are not cut out for long-term full-time study of Torah (which I believe is the majority) should do national service of some sort, one option of which is military service. In addition there are the questions of adding a certain amount of secular studies to the yeshiva curriculum and the question of special budgetary allocations for the Haredi community.
I do not accept the argument that military service "has the potential of creating seismic changes in the Haredi lifestyle". Why should it? In the early years of the state (1950's) most Haredi men DID serve in the IDF yet they were able to educate their children the way they wanted and live a Haredi lifestyle. The whole modern segregated Haredi lifestyle only dates from the beginning of the modern, post-World War II welfare state. Before that, Haredim lived alongside everyone else and struggled for a living along with everyone else. Even today, I know real talmidei hachamim and even dayyanim who served in the IDF and who, although they may identify ideologically with Religious Zionism, live essentially what is a haredi lifestyle and successfully pass on their values to their children. Your claim about seismic changes again implies that Haredi education is inferior and ineffective because it implies that as soon as anyone who has had the education, even for many years, and who comes in contact with people differernt than him, will chuck out his Torah observance. What good is an ideology like that? How can you expect to live in a society where it is forbidden to have contact with anybody different? What are the rest of us supposed to think when we are all considered to be "tamei"? In fact it is wrong, Religous Zionism have been very successful at integrating religious life and participating fully in Israeli life. I would find it very interesting to see how young Religous ZIonists view Torah observance and values and compare this with young Haredim who have been "sheltered" their whole lives. I don't know if the level of emunah of the Haredim is higher (by "emunah" I mean having a clear understanding of why one has to live the sometimes difficult Torah lifestyle and is willing to make sacrifices in comfort and ease of living in order to maintain it).
What you're saying in your first paragraph is one possibility but it's not the entirety of what's on the table at this time. So the threat goes past what you describe.
DeleteI'm not sure what your point about the early years of the state was. At that time, the vast majority were not yeshiva students. Now they are. At this time it threatens to produce a seismic change in charedi society. (I don't know what became of the children and grandchildren of those charedim who served in the Tzahal in the early years either.)
You're exagerating by pretending I've said "anyone" who has had the education etc. I didn't say "anyone" and i'm sure many will come out unscathed. Many go to college and come out unscathed too. But a lot will be harmed, and enough will be harmed that society as a whole will be influenced.
The fact that societies are influenced by other societies is not anything revolutionary or shocking. What makes it even more potent here is that 1) charedim are a small percentage of the overall population, and the majority tends to influence the minority more than the reverse, and 2) the charedi lifestyle is particularly demanding and requires a lot of self-sacrifice, and an "easier" life has a built-in appeal.
The Haredi men who served in the IDF turned out a lot of Haredi children. That's where most of the current Haredi population came from. Thus, as I said, religious people who do engage in modern society have successfully transferred their values to the next generation in spite of all the challenges and tempatations of that modern society. It is quite amazing to me that the religious community today is as strong as it is considering the overt or covert hostility of the surrounding society. Don't forget that most religious Jews of the 19th and early 20th century could not stand up to the challenge and their youth abandoned religious observance.
DeleteThe "seismic change" in Haredi society is coming even if there is no conscription. The economic system in both the US and Israel (i.e. the existing welfare state) can no longer be sustained as in the past. Since modern Haredi society was enabled by this welfare state, it is being affected right now. Add to this the "temptations" of modern technology and we see that a policy of enforced isolation, coercion and demands for conformism are facing major challenges, as for example our host here at this site has pointed out regarding the problematic (from his point of view) Haredi chat rooms. In any event, the surrounding society of Israel taxpayers has every right to say what their tax money is going to. That is why I am surprised that the suggestion I once heard about a package deal being offered has not come up this time...the package deal being that Israeli government recognize those Haredim who refuse to serve on the grounds of their not wanting to be exposed to people who are different than them as being like the Arab community, i.e. people who can not serve on grounds of concience, and in return, these Haredim would not demand any special allocations not available to the rest of the population, and this Haredi community would not involve itself in being the deciding voice in national decisions. This is something like the position of Edah Haredit who refuses to take government money. Those Haredim who do want to integrate would accept the responsibilities the rest of society accepts as regarding national service and certain standards of secular education, and those who insist on continued isolation would opt out of the political and social system and thus be left alone. I somehow think the Haredi leadership would not welcome having their population being given such a choice, fearing the probable outcome.
YBD-
DeleteYOU said it: "they may identify ideologically with (Religious) Zionism".."and successfully pass on [these] values to their children" IS considered a seismic change and is the subject of the current battle !!
Also- "Religous Zionism have been very successful at" assimilating NOT "integrating religious life and participating fully in Israeli life."
FP- last paragraph =well said.
The askanim should have lined up the support of the top echelon of roshai yeshiva before making any plans and certainly before making any announcements.
ReplyDeleteExcept that this was the idea of the Rebbes on the Moetzes of Agudas Yisroel in Israel. They announced it then turned to the askanim (and Agudas Yisroel USA) to arrange it.
DeleteYou can't blame the askonim this time (except perhaps for not gently telling the Rebbes what a bad idea this was)