Yes, intermarriage! Well, we're not talking about marrying out of faith, but intermarrying within. Let me explain: there have been many suggestions and solutions on fixing the so called shidduch crisis, such as closing the age gap, marrying older girls the NASI project etc. Of all frum singles of shidduchim age, many are not compatible for each other to begin with. We have within our own frum community many differe
nt camps and societies.You have chasidish, litvish, modern orthodox, Lubavitch, Sefardi and so on. Most camps marry each other since they share simillar backgrounds and cultures.
One can't expect a satmar chosid or a Lakewood yeshivish boy to marry an idealistic Lubavitch girl. The ideologies are far apart and the goals and way of life are different. However, all this leads to the normal baale batish yeshivish crowd who are the most effected by the shidduch crisis, with a smaller pool of boys and girls to choose from.
The issue at hand is within the yeshivish baale batish circles. We created our own camps and boundaries- some by nature, some at will. We created closed knitted circles among ourselves that will only marry with each other, not availing ourselves as prospects to the general pool.
They keep to each other, whether it is rich to rich families, or choshuv to choshuv, rabbonisheh mishpachos with each other. There is this elitism where people look to do shidduchim with bessere mentchen with out even looking into the so called simple people.
Instead of focusing on the character and compatibility of the boy and girl, the main focus is on, "Who am I being meshadech with?" It must be a sheiner mishpacha. They will not look into a simple family, although their children might be more suitable personally for each other.
It would help solve the crisis by enlarging the pool of available prospects and add more boys as well. Imagine, if all frum boys and girls will be available and there will be no boundaries or different camps, we would not have a crisis.
Same in our own camps. For example: two families are meshadech with each other because they are both roshei yeshiva or both sheiner bessere mentchen, and the girl is 18 and boy 22, however, the personalities of the boy and girl may not be compatible. On the other hand, you have a 20 year old girl from a simple mishpacha, who could make a great rebbetzin for the RY son and another top boy who would be a good fit for the other RY daughter. If they would look into other not so shpitz famailies that have wonderfull suitable children, you add more options that way, and have two engaged couples instead of one. An argument can be made against this logic, but the bottom line is, by adding more boys and girls we broaden the shidduch pool for potential future simchas.
Isnt the shidduch crisis only with the female? Why would a male "mix" if he does not feel the need?
ReplyDeleteKsil
You bet,
ReplyDeleteAfter WW2 the gap was narrowed a refugee was a refugee. Polish & Galicians married Hungarian & Deutsch , & for that matter the few Litvaks left also married out of their clique. True many suffered & some kids were scarred.
However at that time there were few beards almost n shtreimels etc.
Today the dress code dominates our society, by the Chasidishe Oilam where they marry younger, and many of their girls go to Beis yaakov, and marry yeshiva guys, there are older bochurim, & no surplus of girls.
If people would look under the hat, why can't the Litvishe girls marry the chassidishe boys? After all most are anyway Hungarian americans.
#1 read the whole article. The point made was not to mix.Rather to look at others who are the same as you but not as rich or Choshuv yichus.
ReplyDeleteCould it be that a child from a rosh hayeshiva home is only compatable with someone from a similar upbringing?
ReplyDeleteNot necessarily. You can have a bochur who is not from a rosh yeshivas home, but who's properly invested in learning and middos tovos who would be compatible. . Are all our roshei yeshiva sons of roshei yeshiva? No. Are most RY sons of RY? Again, no.
DeleteMost RY are sons of RY Untill recently with the shortage of Sjtellas that many took the initiative to become a RY. This never happened 15 years ago.
DeleteYour history is waaaaaay off base. Name five popular Yeshivos of "15 years ago" and Ill show you the truth that the RY were not sons of RY.
DeleteNot bad this reasoning, however it would take years until this sort of thing would be become acceptable and not "compromising"
ReplyDelete@ chasidish 8:29 yes , however there were many great roshei yeshiva who were married to ordinary simple families. On the flip side there were those that married Choshuv and it didnt work out.
ReplyDeleteHm. The solution to the shidduch crisis is that people should know their place and not try to social climb. And why will they do that?
ReplyDeleteOr maybe, just maybe, the problem is parents who feel they have the right to determine the life partner of an adult child??
ReplyDeleteIf theyre old enough to get married, theyre old enough to decide to whom.
If parents would stay out of these decisions, there would be a LOT more shidduchim.
But they don't want to them to really reach adulthood and make their own decisions. They want them married by 21 or 22 at the latest, with no real life experience, after a handful of dates with someone who has been carefully selected for them by their olders and betters. It's not a system which values autonomous, mature decision-making.
Deletewhat kind of marriage is that?? these KIDS have kids of their own - what kind of parents will they be??? and then we wonder why kids go off the derech, right?
DeleteSo the problem is threefold according to you guys.
Delete1. Parents are making the decisions.
2. They're too young to decide on their own. They should get married at 30, right?
3. They won't be good parents.
Hmm. Lets fact check this, if we may.
# 3. In the communities that marry later, and send their children to secular colleges, 1 out of four leave Judaism. This is the OU's number.
Rabbi Steven Pruzansky sites a recent study that shows "50% of the graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools are no longer Shabbos or Kashrus observant within two years of their graduation."
Let's compare those number to the immature parents. They raise wonderful, faithful, Jewish children. They unfortunately do have about an 7% failure rate. Not 25% or 50%.
#2. Again. Lets check the numbers. There is a 10-15 % divorce rate among those who marry young. The communities that marry older have a much higher divorce rate.
That's besides the huge number of singles in those communities, unfortunately.
#1. Their parents assist them in their decisions in order to avoid the sad statistics noted above. Who cares for their a person the most? Their mother and father.
So you conveniently slide in the part where these kids go to college, which is probably the cause of said "failure" rate.
Deleteyou also compare divorce rates of different communities - why not compare the people in OUR community who got married older? that was what we were comparing.
you also take a leap of faith and assume i meant they should get married at 30, which i did not say or mean. Hows 25 or 26 sound to you?
modern orthodoxy does not have the same problems we do. i dont know if they have the same religion the frum do. dont use them as a convenient punching bag to defend and gloss over our problems in our community.
that 7% statistic is a lie. It has been a lie ever since the article in the Jewish Observer in 1993. If you want to talk to people on the front lines, and get accurate information, that would be nice.
and in many, many, MANY sad instances, the parents care about their own social standing more than their kid's happiness.
Do you have numbers? How about emailing or calling a couple of well-respected (real Rabbonim and marriage counselors) people in the community who deal with divorces and ask them what their experiences has been in regards to the numbers.
DeleteWhat would you like people to do until they reach 25-26? Where and what type of life-experiences will they supposedly gain?
Nature abhors vacuum. The vacuum will fill, and that's why the OU's and Rabbi Pruzansky's numbers are so relevant.
>>>modern orthodoxy does not have the same problems we do. i dont know if they have the same religion the frum do. dont use them as a convenient punching bag to defend and gloss over our problems in our community.<<<
So, are you proposing we follow their "system" and ways? After this statement I would suppose not.
>>>that 7% statistic is a lie. It has been a lie ever since the article in the Jewish Observer in 1993. If you want to talk to people on the front lines, and get accurate information, that would be nice.<<<
Do you have a number? Please share along with the source. Thank you.
>>>and in many, many, MANY sad instances, the parents care about their own social standing more than their kid's happiness.<<<
There is certainly some truth to this. That was the bloggers point here. Look aside and allow "intermarriage". I'll add something as well. The majority of the 10-15% of divorces is caused by mingling in-laws.
I spent numerous years working in drop in centers, yeshivas for the unfortunate brochures who "fell between the cracks" (read: weren't good enough aleph shiur students) and can tell you it is a lot higher than 7%. There are people who have been keeping statistics (the drop incenter has a detailed census for the last ten years) - I do not have the numbers on hand, but again they are a LOT higher than you think.
DeleteI am also going to point out that divorce rates are a misleading statistic. The stigma of divorce in our community is one enough to prevent many people from splitting up. A better metric would be broken homes. And those are a LOT more numerous than you would care to admit.
I propose these kids learn half a day and begin working half a day. They will keep a strong kesher to yiddishkeit and the community, and they'll begin to ease into earning a parnossah with integrity and dignity (and mature as a result). No, I am not proposing we send our children off the azazel cliff of dormitory universities and liberal "philosophy". Nor educating them with Gemara and Halacha as subjects like math and science, for that matter. But that does not mean that maturity is not an integral component of a successful and HEALTHY relationship. It is. And maturity comes with life experience.
Kindly provide a verifiable source, with real names, for your numbers. Thank you.
DeleteUntil you provide the source, your claims motivation are suspect.
Shidduch discrimination against Baalei Teshuvah has no basis in Torah, yet it is socially acceptable to discriminate against Baalei Teshuvah and their children and their grandchildren.
ReplyDeleteAfter 120 years, G_d will ask these people:
“I always had a high opinion of Baalei Teshuvah.
Why didn’t you?”
As a ba'al teshuva, I think people have no right to discriminate against a BT who is now learned, observant, and truly committed to Torah and Mitzvos, not someone who flipped in Israel and is at risk for backsliding.
ReplyDeleteThe age gap is a serious issue no matter what hashkafic circles you associate with. Unless you're the type of person who meets potential dates at kosher social events, most guys want younger girl and girls want older guys. We should definitely encourage dating someone one's own age, or guys date girls 1-3 years older than them. Girls live longer anyway, so they'll be widows for a shorter period of time.
With regard to the core issue that is discussed here, I think it is a yeshivish, right wing crowd issue. I know several people on the YU world who married children of YU Roshei Yeshiva who came from an otherwise normal, non-"chashuve" background.
Focusing on shtus like that is an obstacle we create for ourselves. The main thing is to evaluate a person's middos, personality, and overall worldview/hashkafa. Anything beyond that in terms of yichus, money or whatever is merely icing on the cake.
totally agree. I thought my parents were relatively open-minded about that kind of thing until I started dating a Baalat teshuvah, and my parents went nuts.
DeleteYou inspired my latest post:
ReplyDeletehttp://amiafrumfeminist.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-terrible-tragedy.html
Your point being?
Delete